Talk:Malay language

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Indonesian with quotation mark?

Why this sentence had to use quotation mark like this? (including 260 million as "Indonesian".) Whats the matter for using such feature? Thank you. 182.253.54.81 (talk) 09:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

new discussion

@Ckfasdf: While Indonesian shares historical roots with Malay and there is mutual intelligibility to some extent, Indonesian has undergone significant linguistic development and standardization efforts, leading to differences in vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation. Additionally, Indonesian has absorbed vocabulary from various local languages spoken across the Indonesian archipelago, further distinguishing it from classical Malay. Bayoka55 (talk) 21:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In conclusion, it is true that Indonesian is historically rooted in Malay. Indonesian, as a standardized language, evolved from the Malay language and was heavily influenced by it. However, over time, Indonesian has undergone significant linguistic development, standardization efforts, and the incorporation of vocabulary from various local languages, resulting in its status as a distinct language. So while Indonesian has its origins in Malay, it has evolved into its own unique language with differences in vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation. Bayoka55 (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bayoka55: Kindly please read second paragraph of lead section and Pluricentric language, it should clear things up. Btw, I am Indonesian myself, I know the difference of both languages. However in linguistics point of view, Indonesian is just another standardized variety of Malay and it was also described clearly in this article. Ckfasdf (talk) 21:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also I'd like to invite an actual linguist (such as Austronesier) into this discussion. Ckfasdf (talk) 21:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, Indonesian is a different standard and has developed very much to become his its own kind. Also the diglossia which turned the regional language Betawi into the basilect of standard Indonesian additionally contributed to the divergence between Indonesian and the standard(s) of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei. We can capture this by pointing out the differences in the second paragraph. Neverthless, it does not alter the fact that Indonesian is a standardized form of Malay (as described in many RS), inspite of the fact that "Malay" is not used to refer to Indonesian in common parlance. –Austronesier (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speaker numbers

L1 numbers are listed at 83 million, but in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers article, Indonesian is listed as 44 million, and on ethnologue (https://www.ethnologue.com/insights/ethnologue200/) Malay L1+L2 is listed as 19.2m, so are the extra 19 million coming from 'Baba Malay' and 'Baba Indonesian'?

It would be helpful if someone could post the L2 figures from Ethnologue so at least things would be consistent in the infobox. 90.167.94.143 (talk) 00:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Broken link

The link to Brunei in the opening paragraph is not functioning properly. Clicking on it takes you to the Malaysia article. Brunei does have its own article in Wikipedia, and the link should be fixed accordingly. Geraldpriddle (talk) 23:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Geraldpriddle: Well spotted – I've fixed it. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 01:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bahasa Melayu (Malay language) / Bahasa Melayu Klasik (Classical Malay)

Malay language/Classical Malay has long been used during the Malacca Sultanate. Also spread by the Malacca Sultanate in the Nusantara (according to the Malay definition) such as Malay Peninsular, Thai-Siam (Southern Thai), Champa -(Burma, Cambodia, Viet, Laos), Sri Lanka, Sumatra, Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, Timor, Maluku, Southwest Papua, Cocos Island and Christmas Island.

Malay language is also used by three countries as an official language such as Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei.

The Malay language also developed and gave birth to other Malay languages such as Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia.

Malaysia uses two Malay languages, Bahasa Melayu and Bahasa Malaysia. Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 09:41, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

since when are there two languages? Malaysian language is a political term. while the Malay language is correct. So Bahasa Melayu and Bahasa Malaysia are the differences? 183.171.249.217 (talk) 03:26, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the Misrepresentation of Bahasa Indonesia Spoken in Thailand

The recent revert was made to address an inaccuracy in the text regarding the Malay language spoken by the Malays in Thailand, a region with a population of 1.5 million of Malay descent.

The version from January 13, 2023 (revision ID: 1269265311, by @Sayurasem) suggested that the Malay-speaking population in Thailand uses Bahasa Indonesia, which does not accurately reflect the linguistic situation. This revision seeks to clarify the matter and ensure that the information presented is both clear and factually accurate.

Distinct Dialects in Southern Thailand: The ethnic Malay population in southern Thailand, particularly in the provinces of Yala, Patani, Narathiwat and Satun, speaks distinct regional Malay dialects such as Kedahan/Satun Malay and Patani-Kelantanese Malay. These dialects are part of the broader Malay language family but are not equivalent to Bahasa Indonesia. Bahasa Indonesia is a standardized, formalized version of Malay that was developed in Indonesia, with specific lexical, phonological, and grammatical features unique to Indonesian usage. There is a clear linguistic divergence between the dialects spoken in Thailand and the standardized Bahasa Indonesia, and it is crucial to maintain this distinction. The two are not mutually intelligible in the same way that different varieties of a language might be, and conflating them misrepresents the linguistic reality of southern Thailand.

Linguistic and Historical Accuracy: The original phrasing inaccurately conflated the language spoken by Malays in Thailand with Bahasa Indonesia, obscuring important historical and linguistic developments. While both languages share a common Austronesian root, their paths diverged over centuries, with Bahasa Indonesia undergoing significant standardization, modernization, and incorporation of local Indonesian languages, whereas the Malay dialects in Thailand remained regionally distinct. Recognizing this divergence is essential for understanding the historical evolution of the Malay language across Southeast Asia and ensuring that the text adheres to accepted linguistic principles.

Avoiding Oversimplification and Misleading Information: The statement that the Malays in Thailand speak Bahasa Indonesia oversimplifies and misrepresents the linguistic diversity of the region. This simplification risks causing confusion among readers regarding the complex relationship between the various Malay dialects spoken across Southeast Asia. The assertion could also perpetuate misunderstandings about the nature of Malay language varieties, particularly the relationship between the dialects spoken in Thailand and the standardized Bahasa Indonesia. The revert was necessary to ensure that the text provides a nuanced and accurate portrayal of the linguistic landscape, consistent with established research and academic discourse on the Malay language.

Conclusion: The revert was essential to preserve the academic integrity and factual accuracy of the Wikipedia article. It corrects the original error, clarifying that the Malay ethnic group in southern Thailand speaks distinct regional dialects, not Bahasa Indonesia. This correction ensures that the article accurately reflects the linguistic reality in Southeast Asia and prevents the dissemination of misleading or oversimplified information. The revised version aligns with both linguistic scholarship and the broader understanding of the Malay language family, providing readers with a more precise and informed description of the language's diversity and historical development. Native99girl (talk) 05:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Native99girl: Please don't use AI tools in talk pages. The machine behind it doesn't now the facts and WP policies, it only apes existing text. And it tends to produce overblown blather.

User:Xbypass's version is actually quite ok, but ambiguous in parts (I don't think they deliberately wanted to say that Indonesian is spoken in Thailand, but the pronoun "it" had an unclear antecedent):

Its Indonesian standardized derivation, Indonesian, is an official language of Indonesia and is one of working languages in East Timor. It is also spoken in Indonesian as ethnic language of Malay and southern part of Thailand.

Let's fix it to:

Indonesian, a standardized Malay-based national variety, is the official language of Indonesia and is one of working languages in East Timor. Malay is also spoken as a regional language of ethnic Malays in Indonesia and the southern part of Thailand.

Thoughts? –Austronesier (talk) 06:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the input, I agree with the Xbypass version of the article. Native99girl (talk) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused now. @Xbypass's version is exactly the one that you have objected to (@Sayurasem merely reverted an IP edit back to @Xbypass's version). –Austronesier (talk) 06:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for the confusion @Austronesier. I agree with the fixed version you suggested. Native99girl (talk) 06:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I will update it. Sayurasem (talk) 07:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]